Author Topic: Northern Main, House of Pizza, Poitin Still, Deli Mart, Etc.  (Read 41608 times)

Offline just watching

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Oh no, we have a new liquor store in the neighborhood, the Deli Mart on Main Street near Spring Valley Ave.  For decades, Hackensack has had a policy against allowing new package liquor stores to open up in neighborhood settings. They've denied all liquor license requests to sell package liquor in neighborhoods. The last one was Simon Sez at State & Clay Streets around 1975.

Simon Sez caused a nearly continuous parade of liquor-buying pedestrians walking east down Clay Street from beyond Park Street. These pedestrians were littering, cursing, fighting, pushing drugs, prostituting, panhandling, blasting music, and generally being a nuisance and a drain on the police. Locals called it the "Clay Street Parade". It had severe consequences on the neighborhood.  At one point there was an organized effort by the police to repeatedly bust Simon Sez for liquor sales to minors, so that their license would be permanently stripped (the effort failed in court). 

The Simon Sez problem was so bad that the city decided not to allow any new liquor stores in any neighborhood. Liquor sales was deamed to be incompatible with the residential quality of life. They draw in drunks and homeless people as walk-in customers, and they encourage loitering and panhandling.  More liquor just means more problems. Ever since the Simoz Sez disaster, they have simply been denying the liquor license requests.  Only along the highways, including River Street/Hackensack Ave have new licenses been granted.

Both the Cerbo and Zisa administrations refused to allow any increase in package liquor sales in the neighborhoods.  The new administration apparently knows nothing about this tradition, or has other ideas of what kinds of businesses belong in our neighborhoods.  I'd like to know who was in favor of this change, and why.  But I don't expect any response to be posted.

We don't yet have inner city problems in the Fairmount part of the city, but who knows what the future holds. The Deli Mart's new liquor license is PERMANENT. 10, 20, and 50 years from now that store, or its successor, will be selling liquor. It is now OPEN SEASON on all our neighborhoods.  Every little convenience store and bodega is going to want the right to sell liquor. Yes, they'll have to get liquor licenses, but they can cry discrimination because the Deli Mart was given the right. The city is defenseless and can no longer say that the policy has been continuous since 1975.

It cost big bucks for a liquor license, but makes sense economically to invest in one.  Next will be the Central Mini-Mart at Central Ave & First Street, then
"In & Out" on Union & Atlantic Streets (they already want to do it), and how about a few more in the Anderson Business District and on Hudson Street.



Anthony

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Offline Editor

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Re: Northern Main, House of Pizza, Poitin Still, Deli Mart, Etc.
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2007, 05:33:32 PM »
Liquor licenses are bought and sold privately and are regulated largely by state statute and not local ordinance. Hackensack does not issue any new licenses.

Deli-Mart purchased Princess Liquor's license and I doubt very much that the transfer of the license one block away will have any impact on the surrounding neighborhood.

This administration has done much for Hackensack and continues to do great work.  For anyone who is truly paying attention, the administration's record speaks for itself. 
« Last Edit: August 19, 2007, 07:36:24 PM by Editor »

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Re: Northern Main, House of Pizza, Poitin Still, Deli Mart, Etc.
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2007, 08:15:47 PM »
Although the city may not issue liquor licenses, do you think there might be a problem with a convenience store selling liquor?  I think what "just watching" was saying was that previous administrations wouldn't have allowed it to happen without some form of protest. 

The clientele at Princess Liquors was much different than the clientele that went to Deli Mart.  Although the transfer of the license won't really change the surrounding neighborhood, it will change the makeup of who will now shop in Deli Mart.  My children never crossed Main Street to go anywhere near Princess Liquors.  They stayed on the side of Main Street where Deli Mart was.  Now if they ride their bikes or are walking with friends, they have no choice but to walk past a liquor store.  Not only that, do you think the kids walking home from Fairmount School should be exposed to the new Deli Mart?



Offline Editor

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Re: Northern Main, House of Pizza, Poitin Still, Deli Mart, Etc.
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2007, 09:33:21 PM »
Simple Simon (Essex Street) and Simon Sez (State Street) are two convenience stores that sell liquor. Both border residential neighborhoods both are patronized by children.  Both stores were opened long before this administration came to office. I understand your point, but a municipal government can't change the rules to make it ok for some convenience stores to sell liquor, but not others.  Current liquor license owners can sell them to the highest bidder. That's state law- which would trump any effort by the local government to regulate otherwise.  "Justwatching" is just wrong about the city's authority to control alcohol sales. For the most part, the city's role is clerical. The NJ Division of Alcoholic Berverage Control is the authority.

Should kids and drunks ever have to cross paths?  No.  Do I think it poses a real safety hazard? No.

I grew up in the Fairmount neighborhood and had a friend who lived on top of the Charlmaree Bar.  His mom was a waitress and we would go there after school (Holy Trinity). We got to know some of the "regulars" at the Charmaree and Georges Liquor next door.  It didn't take long to recognize the drunks, most of whom were harmless. All of them were characters. It's the "normal" looking ones you have to look out for.

I think the "exposure" you refer to is a by-product of life in the city.  It's what makes the Hackensack breed a little heartier and more street-savy than more suburban folk.

I also think your kids will be fine because you have the sense to clue them in and make them aware.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2007, 04:03:34 PM by Editor »

Offline irons35

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Re: Northern Main, House of Pizza, Poitin Still, Deli Mart, Etc.
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2007, 12:04:38 AM »
Al,
    with all due respect, its not the same neighborhood we grew up in. the harmless drunks we grew up with are gone. They went home at closing time.  These new arrivals have no home.  There were NEVER drunks uptown falling down drunk on the side streets. They werent EDP's either, Now they are.  I would never allow my children to run the neighborhood like we did.

Deli Mart had taken a dump since being sold.  it is actually disgusting inside.   I used to go there every day.  no more...

Offline Editor

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Re: Northern Main, House of Pizza, Poitin Still, Deli Mart, Etc.
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2007, 09:20:29 AM »
There's always Quick Check. Cleaner, brighter, no booze.  Just one block south.  Deli-Mart was probably losing business to Quick Check, which explains why it wanted to sell liquor.

The "emotionally disturbed people" are always an issue, but you have that in any city with this population, proximity to social services, etc.  On the plus side, the new "full service" homeless shelter on River St. (supported by the current administration, under construction) will negate the need for the shelter on Orchard Street, which should help alleviate homeless wandering into the northern sections.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2007, 01:38:43 PM by Editor »

Offline just watching

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Re: Northern Main, House of Pizza, Poitin Still, Deli Mart, Etc.
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2007, 09:35:15 AM »
I appreciate the responses, and I am satisfied that there is no new increase in liquor sales in the neighborhood.  I didn't know that the license was transfered from Princess Liquors, but that being said, I would still have been happier if it were transferred completely out of any residential neighborhood.

I was under the impression that the city gives the final "thumbs up" or "thumbs down" to any initial decision by the state controlling agency (I'm told it's the NJ Division of Alcoholic Beverages).  Editor, can you please confirm if this is true.

I also agree with the observation that the "Deli Mart" has become a dump, and that they are losing business to Quick Chek. 

What I disagree with is the statement that it's OK for children to have some "exposure" to the problems that are part of living in a city, and that this is what city life is all about. Those who live in the Fairmount Section do not consider it "city".  Rather it is considered to be a suburban community comparable to Maywood; the only difference being that it is located within the borders of Hackensack.  Just like Maywood, most of the area is single-family homes, there are some small-scale commercial districts, and even some industry. But the identity is SUBURBAN, not URBAN. That's what people expect when buying a house there. They don't want to be told by the Editor or anyone else that they are living in a city, and have to cope with the exposure to urban problems right in their neighborhood.

 I can state with confidence that the overwhelming majority of residents in the Fairmount Section of Hackensack do not want the spread of urban problems northwards into the area. That's why so many people were infuriated by the opening of the Orchard Street homeless Shelter.

Oh, and I don't consider the Charlmaree Bar and the rest of the run-down inner city Anderson business district to be in the Fairmount Section of Hackensack.  Fairmount, I would say, means everything from the Holy Trinity Church northwards.  I would count all of Hamilton Place as "Fairmount", as well. But definately nothing south of Passaic Street.

Offline Editor

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Re: Northern Main, House of Pizza, Poitin Still, Deli Mart, Etc.
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2007, 10:51:20 AM »
Yes, alcohol sales are regulated by NJ ABC.

Who wants urban problems? All I'm saying is that just because you live in the northern section, don't think some invisible barrier exists that isolates you from the city at large. Hackensack is a city. Cities have urban problems.  I think Fairmount residents understand that.

I never said the exposure was "OK".  I said it was "by-product" of city life.

I won't speak for anyone else, but as a city resident, I know I will have some randomness and disharmony in my life. For the 2 people in Fairmount who don't know, Hackensack is not Mayberry. (Thank God).

« Last Edit: August 26, 2007, 10:58:21 AM by Editor »

Anthony

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Re: Northern Main, House of Pizza, Poitin Still, Deli Mart, Etc.
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2007, 03:59:21 PM »
Today's (8/26) Record, page S-10 has a Public Notice (column furthest to the right, top notice) about an application to the City of Hackensack for transfer of a liquor license.  Last paragraph starts out, "Objections, if any, should be made immediately, in writing, to: Debra A. Heck, Clerk, City of Hackensack, 65 Central Avenue, Hackensack, NJ 07601."

Evidently, objections can be made.  Unfortunately, Deli Mart's application seemed to have caught us sleeping.  It's too bad.  I just wish someone noticed and had our backs. 

Also, since Waterloo Sue's was losing business to other restaurants, should they have hired go-go dancers to get their business back or maybe had a better business plan?  Deli Mart didn't need to resort to liquor sales to keep their business profitable, all they needed to do was reinvest a little money back into the place to keep it competitive. 

Call a spade a spade, they bought the license to make more money.  I can't blame them, just think the city could have better control over the situation.  As proven by the above referenced Public Notice, someone in the city could have objected but didn't.

Offline itsme

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Re: Northern Main, House of Pizza, Poitin Still, Deli Mart, Etc.
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2007, 09:32:17 PM »
I agree with the Editor.  Maybe the problem in Hackensack is that some in the Fairmount section believe that they are not a part of Hackensack as a whole.  Hackensack is a city and although we are not New York City, we will suffer some urban problems.  Dividing us further will not help to correct those problems. 

It is good to know that citizens can voice opposition to liquor applications.  I am not sure how far they will get us but if you don't voice them, your chance for change is 0%.  If you do voice them, your chance for change is at least 50/50.

I am not a supporter of the minute mayor situation.  However, I am sure some things have come out of it.  However, I believe the "eminent domain" situation unfair.  Interestingly enough, it appears that the properties marked for takeover skip over the property owned by our County Chairman.  Please correct me if I am wrong.

Offline just watching

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Re: Northern Main, House of Pizza, Poitin Still, Deli Mart, Etc.
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2007, 08:58:42 AM »
In my last post, I asked the Editor to confirm:  (((((that the city gives the final "thumbs up" or "thumbs down" to any initial decision by the state controlling agency (I'm told it's the NJ Division of Alcoholic Beverages).  Editor, can you please confirm if this is true.))))

All he responded is that the NJ ABC regulates alcohol sales.  Folks, this is called a non sequitor.  He's answering one question with another question, as if the first question didn't exist. That way he avoids answering the real question.

Editor, please respond with a direct answer to the question, not a non sequitor. Thank you.

Offline BLeafe

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Re: Northern Main, House of Pizza, Poitin Still, Deli Mart, Etc.
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2007, 10:06:28 AM »
Folks, this is called a non sequitor.

Minor detail...................actually, it's a "non-sequitur", from the Latin "It does not follow". (I KNEW those 3 years of Bergen Catholic Latin would finally come in handy some day!)
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Offline Editor

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Re: Northern Main, House of Pizza, Poitin Still, Deli Mart, Etc.
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2007, 04:43:36 PM »
Sorry this took so long, but I wanted to do some research. I found a recent, factually similar, New Jersey case. 

The town makes the initial decision, but the "final thumbs up or down" depends on how much time and money the parties want to expend to challenge the decision, -all the way up the state supreme court. The courts will overturn a decision by a town/city if it abuses its discretion and decides the matter arbitrarily.

In the case I found, KALPESH M. PATEL, Appellant, v. GOVERNING BODY OF THE TOWNSHIP OF NORTH BRUNSWICK, OAL DKT. NO. ABC 2163-04, 2005, the judge reversed the town's denial of the license.  The town denied the license because the store was too close to the schools. The judge held:

Local authorities may reasonably consider community sentiment when deciding whether or not to grant a place-to-place transfer requests. See Fanwood supra, 33 N.J. at 412-13. The community sentiment relied upon must be substantially widespread in the community and be reasonably associated with public health, safety, morals and general welfare concerns commonly recognized as incidental to the sale and consumption of alcoholic beverages. [emphasis added]
...
The law requires deference to the municipality's decision "as long as the decision was not arbitrary or capricious and was reasonably related to the dangers to the public health, safety, morals and general welfare".
...
I FIND that there is no basis in the record upon which to conclude that a convenience store engaging in the sale of alcoholic beverages located 1100 feet away from schools will create dangers associated with the sale of alcoholic beverages.
...
I CONCLUDE that the finding of the Township Council that it would be detrimental and not in the best interests of the Township of North Brunswick to license such premises in the location proposed to be arbitrary and unreasonable, and that its denial of the place-to-place transfer constituted an abuse of discretion warranting reversal of its decision. [emphasis added]
_____________________

To date, this case has not been challeged.

I think that there should be a better way to notify people in the area that a license application is pending. I don't think anyone sees the small notice in the newspaper.  The websites are one way, but they don't target a limited geographic area.  Zoning Board applicants are required to notice people within 200 feet of the applicant's premises.  Maybe that's the way to do it. The state regulates the notice requirement in the NJ Admin. Code.

In any event, when the public objects to the transfer, objections need to get on record so that the denial can survive legal challenge.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2007, 02:57:23 PM by Editor »

Anthony

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Re: Northern Main, House of Pizza, Poitin Still, Deli Mart, Etc.
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2007, 09:07:34 PM »
The Township of North Brunswick denied the transfer request because they felt the liquor store was too close to the schools.  The owner challenged the decision and the decision was overturned. At least the township made the effort to keep the liquor store away from the schools.

The original post said that previous administrations in Hackensack would have also fought the transfer. If the current administration running the City of Hackensack denied the transfer, it would have made a strong statement to the owners of Deli Mart that the city didn't think it was a good idea to add liquor sales to their convenience store.

Whether or not the city's decision would have held up in court is irrelevant.  At least we could have said they tried to stop it and maybe rallied enough people to try to prevent it from happening.  Instead, kids walking home from Fairmount School can stop into Deli Mart for a candy bar and hang out with all those wonderful people getting their daily fix.