Hackensack, NJ Community Message Boards
General Category => Hackensack History => Topic started by: Editor on June 28, 2006, 12:11:34 PM
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These photos are from Bob Hooper of the North Jersey Electric Railway Historical Society. Thanks to Charles Wrenge for forwarding them and for the descriptions below.
The Sand Hill substation on Hudson Street was used for the northern part of the "Bergen Line" since the line could not cross the RR in Little Ferry. Cars were taken across by the "jumper" tracks and kept North of the RR. You got off the Northern section car at Little Ferry, walked across tracks and boarded a southern section car to get to Hoboken. The Building was later converted to a bus garage. It was on Hudson Street, north of Moonachie Road on East Side when going North on Hudson Street.
(http://www.hackensacknow.com/images/streetcar1 (Small).jpg)
The photo below shows the car in Hackensack where the same situation existed until the tracks finally connected. Until then, another car ran from the RR tracks on Main Street north to Cherry Hill (now River Edge, .90 of a mile). While tracks did not cross, the overhead wire did.
(http://www.hackensacknow.com/images/streetcar2 (Small).jpg)
(http://www.hackensacknow.com/images/streetcar3 (Small).jpg)
(Click here for larger map (http://www.hackensacknow.com/images/streetcar3.jpg))
(http://www.hackensacknow.com/images/streetcar4 (Small).jpg)
More about these photos will be posted soon.
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"Big Red Trolley", "Kangaroo Line", "Rag-Time Trolley" and "Toonerville Trolley"
Hackensack's Street Cars: 1894-1938
On August 5, 2006, it will be almost 70 years since street cars operated in Hackensack. On August 5, 1938, car 3540 (complete with a banner: Last trolley Off the Hudson River Line") made the last run from Paterson, to Hackensack and then to Edgewater, ending 44 years of trolley service to Hackensack. Although 14 years old at the time, the author remembers them even as if it were yesterday. This brief article will inform present day Hackensack residents of the successes and failures in building these transportation systems.
Hackensack was served (over the years) by four trolley lines: the Hudson River line, described by its patrons as the "Big Red " trolley cars as they were painted a bright red with gold letters on the side; "Hudson River", the Bergen Turnpike line (later designated as "Bergen"), which the passengers called the "Kangaroo Line." This referred to the five gaps in the line as it crossed several railroads.
In the early years these gaps resulted in the cars being isolated in five segments requiring passengers to change from one car to the other. The passengers had to "hop" from car to car thus the term "Kangaroo Line." The two gaps in Hackensack (at the New York Susquehanna & Western and the New Jersey and New York Railroad) were closed by June, 1906 (a photograph of car 915 on February 16, 1906, before the gap was closed, is above). The gap at the West shore railroad in Little Ferry was never closed. Hackensack cars were stored at the Sand Hill Substation (toll Gate no.5 on the Bergen Turnpike) on South Hudson Street, Hackensack. The Hackensack line approached Hackensack from Rutherford. It followed a twisted route over several farms, had poor tracks and (for some time) old cars. The BERGEN RECORD called it "the rag-time trolley line which winds its way over a jagged course...." It originally entered Hackensack from Grandview Boulevard, Hasbrouck Heights, via Lodi Road, then via private right of way yo Essex Street.
Later it came off Summit avenue, on the south side of the NYS&WRR, terminating as Mercer and Mill Streets. It did not reach Newark until August, 1904, the Lodi line (also called the "Main" line) originally ran from Passaic through Lodi to Lodi Avenue in Lodi. By May 1904, it reached Mercer Street in Hackensack. Because of the twisted route, via single track, it was called the "Toonerville" line by its patrons.
Ownership of these lines varied. The Bergen County Traction, in 1894, was controlled primarily by Philadelphians, including William H. Clark, a banker and brother-in-law of Frederick W. Taylor (famous as the "father of Scientific Management"). It built an impressive private right of way up the side of the Palisades from the Edgewater Ferry and lines to Fort Lee, Leonia and Englewood. It then headed west to Hackensack over Overpeck Creek, through a strip of land called the Fyke, and then via Degraw Avenue to Bogota and then Hackensack. The entrance to Hackensack was via a drawbridge with a 60 foot draw (required by the war Department). In 1900 , it was the largest drawbrisge in the United states used exclusively by street cars.
The first through car from Edgewater to Hackensack reached Hackensack on June 21, 1900. (a photograph of the bridge, taken in 1900 before a second track was installed, looking west is above). On February 27, 1900 the New Jersey and Hudson River and Ferry Company was formed to take control of the Bergen County Traction. The new officals were A. Merritt Taylor of the Philadelphia & West Chester Traction Company, a progressive company whose route today is still in operation under the Southeastern Passenger Transportation Authority (SEPTA) and Ford, Bacon & Davis, New York engineering consultants. William H. Clark was now first vice president. Under their management.
The Hudson river Line was extended through Maywood, Arcola, Warren Point, in Saddle River Township, making a junction with the Paterson tracks of the Jersey City, Hoboken & Paterson Street Railway Company on March 31, 1903. Under the NJ&HR control, the "Hudson River" line became the most efficient and modern trolley system in the United States.
The Bergen Pike line was an outgrowth of the Bergen Turnpike Company, formed in 1802. In 1893, Andrew Zabriskie of Hackensack became president of the company and applied for permission to build a horse car line from Little Ferry, along the turnpike to Hackensack. The commissioners gave their permission so the line only was built from Little Ferry to the New Barbadoes Townshio line. Here the construction people were forced to stop and the line was never constructed. In June, 1900 the Turnpike company was reorganized 1901 by the JCH&P, with the principal stockholders being from Hudson County, but also David A. Pell, Samuel Taylor and Andrew Zabriskie of Hackensack. Under their management, an electric line was built from Little Ferry to Hackensack, reaching Mercer Street on April 1903 and Cherry Hill (at Coles Brook), by June 11, 1906.
The two remaing trolley lines serving Hackensack never reached the smooth operations of the Hudson River or Bergen Pike lines. The Hackensack line was in trouble from its creation on November 2, 1894, as the Union Traction Company, the incorporators were from Rutherford, East Rutherford and Carlstadt, New York City and Brookline, Massachusetts. The company began with expansive plans, but soon ran into financial difficulties. By October 18, 1895 they were in receivership. They were reorganized in February, 1896, with the new officers including Henry C. Adams of Hackensack as president and David A. Pell (also of the Bergen Turnpike) as treasurer. The company began a track laying program and ordered 16 new street cars.
Again, by January, 1899, more financial problems arose and the company was reorganized on February 23, 1899, as the Newark & Hackensack Traction Company. The new officers did not include any Hackensack citizens, they were William G. McCormick of Chicago and William Giles and John H. Coon of Brooklyn. Ten of the new cars were sold for $8,000 to pay off debts and replaced by 6 old second-hand cars from the Brooklyn Heights Railway. It was these cars that were to give the line its "rag-time" trolley name due to their poor riding qualities on inadequate track. The line, however, was built to Essex Street Hackensack. In 1902 the NJ&HR company gained control of the company. The Hudson River Traction was formed on March 21, 1902, with A, Merritt Taylor of NJ&HR as president. The N&H was sold by the County Sheriff at Hackensack on September 1, 1903, purchased by the Hudson River Traction and now part of the Hudson River Line. In 1902 the line began running from First Street, Hackensack, to Summit Avenue and then south to Hasbrouck Heights.
The last Hackensack line, the Lodi Line, never reached any form of smooth operation. It was incorporated as the Saddle River Traction Company on June 22, 1807, to build a line from the Garfield bridge over the Passic River to Lodi. Problems began immediately when the company wished to cross the Erie's Bergen County railroad. The railroad refused and the solution was an underpass costing $24,000. The line opened on December 24, 1899, in a terrible rain storm, but derailed in the underpass.
At the time of its opening the Saddle River Traction Company was part of the JCH&P and in 1900, plans were made to build to Hackensack. Part of the route was achieved by building east on Charles Street, Passaic Street and Main Street to Union Street and then via private right of way to the Boulevard in Hasbrouck Heights. The return route in Lodi was west on Arnot Street and South on Westminster Street to Harrison Avenue. This was a single track operation and soon called the "Toonerville Line". The line reached Mercer Hackensack on May 16, 1904. Public Service acquired the JCH&P in 1907. The Lodi line was renamed the Main line and extended to Paterson.
(cont. below)
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(cont. from above)
Equipment
A brief note must be made on the street cars used on these four Hackensack lines. The Hudson River Line always had a large inventory of equipment. When it was acquired by Public Service, none of its cars were less than ten years old. It had a large number of maintenance and service cars. Public Service introduced 7 "Jumbo" cars in 1911 and in 1912 built the 3500 series for use on the Hudson River Line. These were powerful cars and in 1927 rebuilt as deluxe cars with leather ross seats and cherry wood interiors. They remained on the line until the final day of operation. The Bergen Turnpike used a number of different cars.
Under the Turnpike Company it had 16 cars built in 1901 and 1902. under Public service it first used cars cars built between 1898 and 1904, replacing them with special cars (built in 1910). On October 10, 1921, eight old cars running from little Ferry to Hackensack were replaced by 10 new "Birney" single-truck, one man "safety cars". They lasted until April 26, 1926, replaced by a new bus line. Car 7190 was the last car and a photograph of it with J. Pell Zabriski on the step is above. The Hackensack Line used a number of marginal cars before it became Public Service. Although Union Traction ordered 10 new cars, it had to sell them to raise money. The N&H company purchased twelve old second hand cars from the Brooklyn Heights Railroad to replace them.
When the Hudson River Traction sought to acquire the N&H in 1902, Ford, Bacon and Davis studied the company, reporting that the cars were "short single-truck cars, which were purchased about 3 years ago, second-hand. These are in poor repair ...and...wholly unfit for modern first class operation."
Public service replaced them with cars 1847 and 1876, built in 1910 and except for a few 1900 series cars, they were used until the end of operations. The Lodi line used small single truck cars until acquired by Public Service. They replaced them with large double truck cars when they extended the line from Hackensack to Paterson in 1904. these cars were used until the termination of the line in 1924.
Abandonments of the four lines: The Hudson river line was abandoned on August 5, 1938, The Bergen Pike Line (Northern Section to Hackensack) April 26, 1926, The Hackensack Line (between Hackensack and North Arlington) December 2, 1928. The Lodi line August 31, 1924.
Sources: Charles D.Wrege and Ronald Greenwood, Frederick W. Taylor: Father of Scientific Management; Myth and Reality, Irwin Business One, New York, 1991.
B.H. Sennstrom and E.T. Francis Public Service Railway:Bergen Division. Harold R.Cox, , Forty Fort, PA, 1994
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Someone emailed me about the Lodi Line mentioned in the story above:
The oldtimers used to call it the Lodi dummy. Never found out why.
If you look on Franklin Street which runs off of Passaic Street by the gas station that used to be Joe's Amoco, you can usually see depressions or pot holes where the trolley tracks are still buried. If the pot holes are big enough you can still see the tracks.
I had been told that the tracks under Main Street and the other trolley "rights of way" were torn up and the steel used for the war effort in World War ll. This was the case in most cities where the trolleys were no longer in use.
Also- George Scudder's "Fairmount - 1915 (http://www.hackensacknow.com/Fairmount2_1915.pdf)" mentions a place called "the end" at the northern end of town near Coles Brook. This is where "the Trolley Car line ended and the motormen would pull down the pole from the end of Trolley and release the pole on the other end and guide the pulley onto the electric wire." There is a photo fhe Trolley on Main Street on page 12 in Scudder's piece. You can also see the tracks on Main Street. See the pictures here: http://www.hackensacknow.com/Fairmount2_1915.pdf
Scudder's "Historic Facts About Hackensack (http://www.hackensacknow.com/HistoricFacts.pdf)" also has a section on the trolleys that reads:
The Bergen County Traction Company was organized in 1896 to provide trolley service to Bergen County. On February 24, 1899, the first trolley left Fort Lee bound for Paterson, through Hackensack. This line later became known as the Hudson River Line. Lines were later extended to Rutherford, Passaic and Newark. In Summer it was a pleasure riding in the "open air" trolley from Leonia across the meadows to Hackensack. The line going to Paterson ran alongside the Susquehanna tracks in Hackensack as far as First Street. It then turned and ran under the trestle north of First Street to Passaic Street, then west on Passaic to Franklin Place, north to Hamilton Place where they went west over the hill into Pleasant Avenue, Maywood. The line to Rutherford and Newark ran west through Hackensack as far as Summit Avenue then south through Hasbrouck Heights on the Boulevard.
Meanwhile, the Public Service Company was running a trolley line north and south through Hackensack. The line terminated at the northern most boundaries on Main Street at Zabriskie's Pond. From there it went down Main Street, Hudson Street and through Little Ferry, Ridgefield and all the way to Weehawken Ferry. The cost of a trolley ride was five cents.
One more picture:
(http://www.hackensacknow.com/images/trolleyhack.jpg)
Will history repeat itself? Getting back on track (http://www.bergen.com/page.php?qstr=eXJpcnk3ZjcxN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk5JmZnYmVsN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk2OTU0NzA2) (Recent Record article about light rail)
"There are so many good rail proposals in highly populated, poorly served areas of New Jersey...," said Jeff Zupan, senior transportation planner for the Regional Plan Association.
One plan would link Hawthorne and Paterson to Hackensack. Another would collect passengers in Monmouth, Ocean and Middlesex counties, the fastest-growing region in New Jersey and one of its slowest-moving. The Northern Branch line would connect Tenafly, Ridgefield and the terminus of the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail line in North Bergen for twice the cost of the cutoff.
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A related story;
About 20 years ago, I was reading through the Fire Journals of the Teaneck Fire Depatments Station #3 located on Morningside Terr off De Graw Ave. I found that in the late 1930's they responded to a car fire on De Graw Ave by Queen Anne Rd. They stretched their hoses, started to put the fire out when the Trolly came along and sliced the hoses. The Trolly kept going and heads rolled when they returned to their Station.
I found it somewhat amusing.
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If you'd like to read a real interesting book about Hackensack life in the 1920s with lots of local detail, find a 1969 book called "The Night We Stopped The Trolley (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0007EFOPU/ref=cm_ciu_custimg_item_1/103-8950543-1254213?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=283155)" by Earl Schenck Miers.
The title refers to a humorous incident that was perpetrated on a trolley on Summit Ave on Halloween Night, but that's just a small part of the book.
Here are some of the subtitles within various chapters:
Union Street
State Street
High School
Beech Street
The Woods
The author lived at 113 First St and later worked for The Bergen Evening Record.
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Hudson River Line Trolley in Hackensack:
(http://www.hackensacknow.com/images/hudsontrolley.jpg)
(Thanks Bob)
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More Trolley pics. (Thanks again Bob)
(http://www.hackensacknow.com/images/trolley5.jpg)
(http://www.hackensacknow.com/images/trolley9.jpg)
This caption says: "Hudson River Car No. 3511 during a fasttrip at Hackensack, March 27, 1935."
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More about local trolleys and ferrys on the Bergen County Historical Society Boards:
http://bergencountyhistory.org/forums/index.php/topic,192.msg342.html#msg342
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Hackensack, NJ Three Trolley Cars Crash, Feb 1917 (http://www3.gendisasters.com/new-jersey/6242/hackensack-nj-three-trolley-cars-crash-feb-1917)
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Regarding the very first post in this string, where in Little Ferry is there a railroad. Was there one that formerly existed, and has since been ripped up ?
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These showed up on ebay here (http://cgi.ebay.com/6-1910-Hackensack-NJ-New-Jersey-Trolley-Negative-Lot_W0QQitemZ280264099352QQihZ018QQcategoryZ14279QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosting).
Vintage and Original collection of 6 negatives measuring 6.5x8.5 inch glass negatives of the Fort Lee, Hackensack and Engelwood New Jersey Trolley Line. This line brought people from Fort Lee to Manhattan.
Related story in The Record: Free trolleys will serve apartment buildings (http://www.northjersey.com/news/New_local_trolleys_will_serve_apartment_buildings.html)
Thanks to Bob Leafe. Bob is wondering if any one can identify the street scene in the third picture below:
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Description:
Public Service Railway line car #5218 in the yard at Hackensack, NJ on 6/3/34.
Anyone know exactly where in Hackensack this "yard" was? Is that the Peoples Trust building in the background? What other building in 1934 Hackensack was that big?
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I'm thinking that the trolley is on the Susquehanna Line and the houses are on Banta Place. However, I'm not sure houses were on Banta in 1934, but it is possible.
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I'm thinking that the trolley is on the Susquehanna Line and the houses are on Banta Place. However, I'm not sure houses were on Banta in 1934, but it is possible.
Trolleys didn't run on railroad tracks.
IF that's the Peoples Trust building, 2 sides of it are visible - split by a tree. Because of the number of windows per floor, the left half is a side wall and the right half is either the front or the rear wall.
If the houses were on Banta place, the right side of the building would be the front, but since the houses' fronts are visible, they are parallel with the front of the building instead of perpendicular, so that rules out Banta Place.
By keeping the right half of the building as the front, a scenario can be created that places the houses on Railroad Ave by Clay St and the trolley on the Erie tracks. The angle fits, but there's one slight problem: as mentioned above, trolleys didn't run on railroad tracks.
So maybe there IS a trolley yard. It would have to be on Railroad Ave, which pushes the houses back a block to Park. The angle still works, but there's another minor problem: since the trolley's on tracks, those tracks would have to feed from somewhere, but there were no trolley lines running through the Clay St/Railroad Ave area.
So the premise that the front of the bank is visible must be faulty.
Let's say now that it's the back of the building. That places the houses on River St, facing east, just north of Mercer. It also places the trolley right next to the Hudson River Line tracks at a point just after it crosses the Hackensack River and just before it bends to go up Mercer St - a perfect place for a feeder track to a trolley yard.
It works!
On the below trolley map, I used a red arrow to show where the Peoples Trust building is and a green circle to indicate where I think the trolley yard had to be - east of river St and right next to the trolley tracks and Susquehanna RR tracks.
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Your description says Public Service Railway line car, but your subject says trolley. I'm not sure "Railway" means "trolley". I don't know the difference.
The map shows an area where the Susie Q and a trolley line virtually overlap. That area is behind Villa De Columbia on Mercer. I think the camera may be facing north, towards Banta. I'll try to take a picture tomorrow.
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Maybe we can look at the photo from another perspective. The face of the wall to the left of the tree is much brighter than the face of the wall to the right of the tree. That could mean that the brighter face would be the east or west facing wall and the wall to the right of the tree would then be either the north or south facing wall of the building. This theory would be rejected if the windows don't match the particular face of the building.
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Your description says Public Service Railway line car, but your subject says trolley. I'm not sure "Railway" means "trolley". I don't know the difference.
The map shows an area where the Susie Q and a trolley line virtually overlap. That area is behind Villa De Columbia on Mercer. I think the camera may be facing north, towards Banta. I'll try to take a picture tomorrow.
They're both railways, but trolleys are much lighter than trains and don't require the heavier rails that trains need.
The area I'm guessing for the yard is EAST of River St and just north of the Susquehanna trestle over River St, perhaps between the Susie-Q tracks and the Midtown Bridge approach - wherever it is that gives you the bank angle that the picture shows.
This map is from Villa de Colombia's site. They show their location as west of Main St, the red arrow points to the bank and the green circle is my guess where the yard was. If that's correct, you'd be aiming in a north-northwest direction.
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I think the picture below was taken in the mid-50's, but doesn't show a yard. This may or may not be useful.
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I recall a discussion on this topic on this site back in 2006. Maybe the Editor can link the 2 topics?
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Here is the other trolley discussion.
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Hudson River Line Trolley in Hackensack:
(http://www.hackensacknow.com/images/hudsontrolley.jpg)
(Thanks Bob)
So, while looking through this thread that itsme just revived, the above photo looked familiar. Sure enough, I posted something VERY similar last month on the Bergen County Historical Society board - a photo that claimed to be a trolley in Bogota.
Here's the link and the photo is below:
http://bergencountyhistory.org/forums/index.php?PHPSESSID=62248823284d7d750beb476bd48e8b38&topic=1607.0
It's the same location - look at the windows on the houses in the background. Not only does it look more like Bogota (where Main St is elevated over the railroad tracks), but I recall having a discussion with the seller, who personally took the picture...........in Bogota.
Sorry, Editor - you may wanna delete your thanks.
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Well, here's what I came up with. I'm on the sidewalk on the east side of River St, almost to the corner of the Midtown Bridge Approach.
When was this part of River St built? If it existed in this location in 1934, then the yard wasn't here.
OR
The yard was set back further east and the picture was taken with a telephoto lens that tends to compress things and make background things look bigger.
The number of windows per floor on the bank's back wall is about right.
I don't know about this..........I have my doubts.
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The other topic is here (http://www.hackensacknow.org/index.php?topic=704.msg4814#msg4814). I leave it to Bob to merge.
Sorry I didn't get a chance to take that picture but I will. I think Bob's comparison is close but the building is multi-dimensional and it's hard to peg the side photographed. I see why Bob has his doubts. Fun stuff.
I think River Street was constructed in the 1950's. In the picture I included above, we may be looking at backs of the homes in Bob's pictures, if his angle is right.
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The other topic is here (http://www.hackensacknow.org/index.php?topic=704.msg4814#msg4814). I leave it to Bob to merge.
I think Bob's comparison is close but the building is multi-dimensional
(Topics merged w/subjects unchanged)
Actually, I cropped the picture because of that (the full version is below). The original doesn't show the full side, so you only need to show what that picture shows. You really have to take the picture at the right time of day because of the sun/shadows. Maybe when the sun's directly overhead the side might look more uniform.
The original picture doesn't seem to show any shadows, so maybe other atmospheric conditions were in play that day...................OR MAYBE IT'S THE WRONG DAMN PLACE.
But the fact that River St wasn't there in 1934 works in our favor and Editor's 1950s image DOES show houses there, so just maybe..................
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Just an idea. If either Bob or the Editor knows former councilman / Bd. of Ed. member Mark Stein, you might want to ask him. Many years ago Mark told me that his family used to live in that neighborhood and were forced to move because that area was in the City's first "urban renewal project." He might be able to provide insight on those houses and even the trolley area if, in fact, it was located in that general area.
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How's this? With the sun more directly overhead, there are no vertical shadows on the side of the building. The building walls look somewhat comparable to that of the 1934 photo.
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I think BLeafe has the trolley yard location correct. That's the back of the big bank building, and the houses are probably those on the west side of River Street. The east side must have had no houses.
As for "picture #3", that's a bigger mystery. There's a house close to the street, so it's likely an older part of Hackensack, in the immediate vicinity of the downtown. There's no hint of hill or incline. There's open space or a park on the right. And the trolley track is making a bend to the left of 90 degrees, or close to 90 degrees. And the street it is turning onto is only about 2 blocks long. That's the tough part, I've gone back to the map 10 times to look for that configuration. I'm having difficulty with that one, but if I had to guess I'd say it's somewhere around Mercer Street.
Picture #4 is also a big mystery, the trolley through the woods with one building in the distance. Must be what is now Summit Ave, looking north. Somewhere south of the Susquehanna Line.
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Photo: The Public Service "yard" by River St?
Description:
Public Service of New Jersey, Trackage: Main Street Line Terminal and Storage yard between Hudson River Line (PROW), looking East toward Mercer and State Streets, Hackensack, New Jersey.
Another picture has popped up on eBay that I think brings us back to that "yard" that was in the River St/Mercer St vicinity......minus one possible mistake in the above description.
That description mentions Public Service, the Hudson River Line, and the yard, but it says it's "looking East toward Mercer and State Streets". It would have to be looking west.
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I don't think it is looking west towards Mercer and State STreets. That would mean the picture is taken near Main Street, or just west of Main Street, and looking further west. I doubt that.
If it is looking east towards Mercer and State Streets, that might mean it was taken near Union Street. And the trolley yard on the right is now a large parking lot and Islamic center (former Knights of Columbus). Maybe the house in the photo is on the north side of Trinity Place.
I am just wondering that the caption is correct, in terms of description.
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Your previous post in this thread agreed that the yard was down by River St. Are you now saying that the Hudson River Line had another yard just a couple of blocks to the west?
Assuming this new image IS the River St yard - a bad name for it since River St didn't exist when the yard did - my thought was that the tracks have just crossed the river from Bogota, heading west, and the offshoot tracks are going to the yard.
If that's accurate, the scene is looking west.
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Does this help? I think those are train cars in the lower, center of the image. I re-scanned an old aerial at higher resolution here (http://www.hackensacknow.com/images/aerialhigherres.jpg). This is much more detailed. The image below is just a detail.
Bob's image for comparison:
(http://www.hackensacknow.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=704.0;attach=1754;image)
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I think those are train cars in the lower, center of the image.
(http://www.hackensacknow.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=704.0;attach=1754;image)
You mean "train tracks"? They DO look like train tracks. The auction was for 4 different trolley-related photos, so I wonder if the seller got a train-related photo mixed in there by accident.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Group-4-old-B-W-Public-Svc-N-Jersey-trolley-photos-/160465630645?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item255c7f35b5
As for your aerial image..........I think you said that River St came about in the 50s? Trolleys were long-gone by then, so I don't think this image will help with that discussion.
However, I think I see something that could be trolley tracks that seem to come over from Bogota just north of the Susie-Q tracks (there's not enough picture to be sure of that) and they appear to take a very slight turn to the left right before River St.
This could be the old path of the Hudson River Line trolley and that dark patch that it appears to turn into might be the old trolley yard. In fact, something in that yard looks like an old trolley!
But the "trolley tracks" appear to end there instead of continuing to the left and then heading west up Mercer, so whatever's in that yard could just be a remnant of the trolley era - just waiting for progress to sweep it away.
Hey - continuing south on River St, there's a structure on the east side of the street - just past where The Record would be - that I'll bet is the old Municipal Bus Terminal.
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You win the bet. That was the old Bus Transfer Station.
If you want to see something interesting that the oldtimers may remember, hop into your imaginary Olds Rocket 88 and make a left pulling out of the bus station. Drive down to South River Street and East Broadway and look at the Goldberg property as it was then. Most people will remember the old manufacturing building; but, few remember all the storage sheds that were located just to the north of the plant. Goldberg billed itself as The Worlds Largest Soft Sole Shoe manufacturing company. Manufacturing went on throughout the year and the products were stored in these sheds and others across South River Street until their busy season which was in the Fall when they began to ship their product to retailers for the upcoming holiday season.
As years went by, production at the site diminished as more of their product was produced outside the United States which allowed them to reduce the on site storage.
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I went through all the old maps and images on this string. The Editor posted on 6/28/2006 a map called "Local Car Lines, Hackensack 1900-1938", and it shows parallel rail/trolley lines between Union and State Streets. As one looks east from mid-way between Union and State Street, the lines part slightly, one of them (evidently a trolley line) veers off to the right in order to link up with the end of Mercer Street.
That trolley line junction is exactly what the last picture posted by BLeafe depicts. The image caption is correct, it is looking east towards State and Mercer. This is pretty definitive. It would help to go back and look at that map posted in 2006. This is good historic image for the archive records, for part of the block bounded by the Railroad, State Street, Trinity Place, and Union Street.
I also agree that there was a trolley yard on the east side of River Street between the Susquehanna and Midtown Bridge approach, and some of the other photos on this string accurately depict that trolley yard. Nice work, guys.
Keep these tricky images coming, between all of us we can figure most of them out.
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That was the old Bus Transfer Station.
Nomenclature question, Homer. You're referring to the old place shown below that was on the east side of the street and not the more recent one on the west side between River and Moore, right?
To me, the more recent one is "the Bus Transfer Station", but maybe the old place was also called that way back when.
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Nomenclature answer. I was referring to the old "facility" shown on the photo which was on the east side of River Street. The new place on the west side of the Street is without question called the bus transfer station. I really don't remember whether the old "facility" from 70 or whatever number of years ago was called a transfer station or a terminal.
Maybe we can be real fancy and call it an intermodal transfer point where you could have taken the bus to said intermodal transfer point and walked to the train station at Mercer Street or vice versa.
As they used mto say in the old Wrigley gum commercial "Some people call it a spear and some people call it an arrow."
Whatever.
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Bob- I meant "train cars", in the yard just east of River Street in the big image. I think the tracks in your image could be from that yard, though I don't know the angle, - perhaps facing south.
I remember hearing that River Street was constructed in the 50's. I think I'm wrong about that. I'm looking for when the Fire HQ on State St. was demolished. That would give us a "picture could not have been taken after...." date.
This the map JustWatching is refering to: http://www.hackensacknow.com/images/streetcar3.jpg. Image below. I don't think we know how far right the tracks veer. They could stop shortly after the turn if this is a yard.
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As they used mto say in the old Wrigley gum commercial "Some people call it a spear and some people call it an arrow."
“Certs is a candy mint."
"Certs is a breath mint."
"Stop! You're both right!”
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Bob- I meant "train cars", in the yard just east of River Street in the big image.
Sorry. For some reason, I thought you were referring to the eBay tracks image. Your train cars were what I guessed were leftover trolley cars.
Do we know if a train yard succeeded the trolley yard in that location?
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I just found a page - http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=300912 - that shows a trolley car in the "Hackensack Car Yard".
It also gives a date - August 4, 1938 - and mentions that it's two days before "abandonment of the Hudson River Line", so now we know when that major trolley line ceased to serve Hackensack.
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You know what I just noticed about that 1938 trolley car? It's the same car (#5218) in the same yard as the below 1934 car, which started the whole "yard" discussion!
I wonder if it was the yard's only tenant.
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I decided to dig a little further into that railpictures site and found a few more interesting images.
I think this one is the prize (though it's not on Main St, as the caption would have you believe - it's on Mercer):
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In this trolley image, the poster doesn't know where it was taken, but thinks it has to be either Hackensack or Paterson.
I don't recognize the scene. Anybody got a clue?
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I think this is 107 Main Street, corner of Atlantic. The original structure was demolished. In 1931, the National Grocery Company (seen in Bob's picture) and the Bergen County Third District Court occupied this space (Bergen County Historic Site Survey). See Virtual Historic Walking Tour here (http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=106029982724910345331.00048e06794387f8e6371&ll=40.881722,-74.043722&spn=0.00054,0.001206&t=h&z=20&iwloc=00048e1b7172cf42ad3a6).
If you asked me two weeks ago, I couldn't tell you.
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The problem with that is that this is a Hudson River Line trolley - an east-west line. It didn't go up and down Main St.
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I have to agree with you there but for 2 different reasons:
1. I never saw that building nor a picture of it, and
2. At the time that picture was taken Main Street was a two way street. Look behind the trolley and the car is parked diagonal to the curb. Main Street was never wide enough to support two way traffic and diagonal parking.
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I think there is a picture of building in the site survey. If so I'll scan it. "National Grocery" must have had stores every place, but one in Hackensack existed at 107 Main St. or thereabouts. Very interesting.
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The trolley picture with the train station in the background is the Susquehanna Station that existed on the NE corner of Main & Mercer Street. The picture is looking south. The editor has other pictures of this station in the archives, and the roofline is unmistakable.
The trolley picture with the stores in the background is not 107 Main Street. I remember the 3 small junky stores that were there before that office conversion occured in the late 1980's. That's not the building in that photo. Sorry, can't identify the location of that last photo.
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Correction, the train station photo is looking north-northeast. And the trolley tracks run up the middle of Mercer Street. Main Street is to the left of the photo, and not in the photo. THe Susquehanna line is behind the train station. I got the building and location right, just the direction of the photo I was initially misled.
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(http://www.hackensacknow.org/images/RR%20Station.jpg)
(http://www.hackensack.org/images/slideshow/RailroadStations/photo09.jpg)
(http://www.hackensack.org/images/slideshow/RailroadStations/photo08.jpg)
(http://www.hackensacknow.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=704.0;attach=1775;image)
The roof line changed (see dormer/peak in earlier photo) but it's the same building.
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Yep, that's the photo in the archives I was referring to.
Looks like there was a slight change in the front part of the roof, maybe done when they changes roofing materials. One photo shows terra cotta tiles, and one show either shingles or slates.
I remember the rear of that building still had the terra cotta until a few years ago when the Mexican Restaurant, Mi Rancho, had a fire. So probably the terra cotta was the latter tile ????
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El Potrero Grill was the Restaurant. Related Post (http://www.hackensacknow.org/index.php?topic=611.msg1642#msg1642).
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Just a rememberance of mine from the 60's & 70's ...
Before and up until the Mcdonalds was built on River st...(I'm not saying it was built in the 60's)... but if you were standing in the rear parking lot behind the YMCA looking south and crossed Passaic st into the parking lot that is behind the Hackensack Fruit market and Alywards and whatever else is there and in between Mcdonalds there were trolly tracks in that parking lot that were probably pulled up or paved over in the early 70's........
They would have run south from there between the tennis courts or right over them and the stores and theaters and house's or go go bars..whatever was there at the time......
but the point being....... I remember the trolly tracks there and i my opinion thats where the trolly yard was.........
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Yes, the Mexican Restaurant was called El Portrero at the time of the fire.
Mi Rancho was an earlier name of the same restaurant, perhaps a different owner. Unsure about that. They had the best red snapper, served Mexican style with a Garlic Sauce.
The employees used to park between the railroad and the building, in a row. One day one guy parked 6 inches too close to the train. Ooops. I was eating in Mi Rancho sometime around 1995 when the Susquehanna roared through, and totalled 3 automobiles against the side of the building. The one auto parked too close was the first auto, the other two were just parked at the wrong place at the wrong time. Following that, the railroad put up a steel cable so nobody could park back there. The worker was fired.
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Regarding trolley in front of "National Grocery" (previous page of this thead), below is 105 1/2 (aka 107) which I thought was shown in Bob's image. The size is about right, but the window scheme is different. While the building may have been modified at some point, I now doubt this is the building in Bob's picture.
Bob's picture for comparison:
(http://www.hackensacknow.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=704.0;attach=1777;image)
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Another thing. Look at all the trees behind and to the left of the trolley. If the building in "Bob's picture" had been the "Hackensack building", those trees would have stood along the west side of MainStreet south of Atlantic Street/ Warren Street. I am sure that your maps show that there were buildings located in that area well before the trolley era and when black cars of the vintage of the auto shown were cruising Main Street.
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Road Warrior: Recalling an era when 'Big Red' was king
Sunday, August 18, 2013
By JOHN CICHOWSKI ROAD WARRIOR COLUMNIST
Those of us who routinely use trains, buses or cars to shuttle through Bergen County from Paterson to the Hudson River might find it hard to believe that there was once another horseless way to make this trip. "Trolleys were the only way to travel," said old-time New York Giants baseball fan Edd Dresher, "and they were very cheap."
At 99, the Hackensack native is one of the few who remember the old Hudson River trolley line, disbanded 75 years ago this month after four decades of service. The line took a teenaged Dresher nearly from his father’s newspaper store at Main and Mercer streets to the Edgewater ferries that carried him to 125th Street, where he got another trolley to transport him to his idols at the Polo Grounds. "The River Line cost a nickel for one zone, 15 cents to reach the ferry," recalled Dresher as he rattled off names of long-ago Giants: "Frankie Frisch, Bill Terry, Heinie Groh and Mel Ott in his prime." Why remember trolleys now? Aren’t there more significant transportation anniversaries in 2013? Yes, it has been 110 years since the Wright brothers’ flight.
This year also marks the 100th anniversary of the Henry Ford brainstorm that transformed America: a conveyor-belt assembly line that allowed cars to be built cheaply enough for millions to own. And next year, New Jersey celebrates the 60th anniversary of the completion of a major American toll road — the Garden State Parkway, an achievement that’s celebrated in a new, photo-laced book just published by Arcadia. For those who avoid toll roads, consider another Garden State highway contribution that can’t be avoided: Jersey barriers. Designed in 1946 at Stevens Institute of Technology in Hoboken, these portable, concrete, parabolic-shaped medians direct traffic and prevent crashes on tens of thousands of miles of American roadway. But in an era when cars and highways were still in their infancy, electric-powered trolleys were king — the dominant mode of transportation that sped the growth of big cities like New York, Chicago and Boston. Thank Thomas Edison for that.
The great inventor created the first electric locomotive in 1880 for a special New Jersey track in Menlo Park, now called Edison. Seven years later, his protégé Frank Sprague built the first large electric railway system in Richmond, Va. Soon, rail companies built similar systems in towns big and small, including Paterson, Hackensack, Newark and Passaic. Hackensack alone had four lines. But few of them were as efficient and modern as Big Red, the nickname given the Hudson River line for its well-upholstered, crimson-colored cars that carried passengers 18 miles from Paterson to the Edgewater ferries in less than 90 minutes.
Big Red ran from Edgewater to Palisades Amusement Park in Cliffside Park and Fort Lee, then moved on to Route 5 in Ridgefield, Broad Avenue in Leonia, then Bogota, Hackensack, Maywood, Rochelle Park, Paramus, and Broadway in Fair Lawn, Elmwood Park and Paterson. Its cars even carried bike racks, making it easy for Columbia University students to pedal to class in Morningside Heights once they reached Manhattan by ferry. But on Aug. 5, 1938, Public Service Coordinated Transport ceased running the line that helped bring Ivy League education and big league baseball to North Jerseyans. The company was now concentrating on its bus lines. The last Big Red car left the Paterson terminal on West Broadway to the accompaniment of a 30-piece band, according to press accounts.
The Bergen Evening Record’s publisher, John Borg, who attended a mock wake at the Swiss Chalet in Rochelle Park, hailed the change as "another milestone in Bergen County’s progress." His Passaic County rival, Harry Haines, publisher of the Paterson Evening News, suggested that the line’s rights-of-way be donated to municipalities "as beds for new roads." "The Hudson River line was one of the longest and best," said Cliffside Park reader Ralph Langberg, a trolley historian who dug up old newspaper articles for this column. "But from the 1930s to the 1940s, nearly all the lines were disbanded one by one." One reason, according to Langberg: "Trolley company owners were heavily invested in oil, automobiles and tires by then."
After the George Washington Bridge opened in 1931, the days of local trolleys were numbered. The automobile would be the new king. The push to the suburbs began in earnest when veterans returning from World War II were offered low-interest mortgages under a GI bill that encouraged home ownership in towns with plenty of vacant farmland. Congress began financing the Interstate Highway System in 1957, the same year that Bergen County’s first shopping malls opened on Route 4 in Paramus. But now, Hudson County has light-rail trolleys and the prospects for bringing this NJ Transit system to Bergen — at least to Englewood — appear bright.
Federal money was secured in 2007 to initiate a Big Red-type line that would send trolleys from Paterson into Bergen, although NJ Transit lacks the funds to follow through. Time changes habits and priorities, as it did for one former trolley rider in 1938. "By then I had a Plymouth," said Edd Dresher. "I could drive to the Polo Grounds." Road Warrior stops by here Wednesday, Friday and Sunday.
Email him at cichowski@northjersey.com.
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Regarding the very first post in this string, where in Little Ferry is there a railroad. Was there one that formerly existed, and has since been ripped up ?
That is certainly referring to the Little Ferry Yard (http://"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Ferry_Yard"), in Ridgefield and Ridgefield Park and North Bergen.