Hackensack, NJ Community Message Boards
General Category => Hackensack Discussion => Topic started by: just watching on August 19, 2007, 12:04:12 PM
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Oh no, we have a new liquor store in the neighborhood, the Deli Mart on Main Street near Spring Valley Ave. For decades, Hackensack has had a policy against allowing new package liquor stores to open up in neighborhood settings. They've denied all liquor license requests to sell package liquor in neighborhoods. The last one was Simon Sez at State & Clay Streets around 1975.
Simon Sez caused a nearly continuous parade of liquor-buying pedestrians walking east down Clay Street from beyond Park Street. These pedestrians were littering, cursing, fighting, pushing drugs, prostituting, panhandling, blasting music, and generally being a nuisance and a drain on the police. Locals called it the "Clay Street Parade". It had severe consequences on the neighborhood. At one point there was an organized effort by the police to repeatedly bust Simon Sez for liquor sales to minors, so that their license would be permanently stripped (the effort failed in court).
The Simon Sez problem was so bad that the city decided not to allow any new liquor stores in any neighborhood. Liquor sales was deamed to be incompatible with the residential quality of life. They draw in drunks and homeless people as walk-in customers, and they encourage loitering and panhandling. More liquor just means more problems. Ever since the Simoz Sez disaster, they have simply been denying the liquor license requests. Only along the highways, including River Street/Hackensack Ave have new licenses been granted.
Both the Cerbo and Zisa administrations refused to allow any increase in package liquor sales in the neighborhoods. The new administration apparently knows nothing about this tradition, or has other ideas of what kinds of businesses belong in our neighborhoods. I'd like to know who was in favor of this change, and why. But I don't expect any response to be posted.
We don't yet have inner city problems in the Fairmount part of the city, but who knows what the future holds. The Deli Mart's new liquor license is PERMANENT. 10, 20, and 50 years from now that store, or its successor, will be selling liquor. It is now OPEN SEASON on all our neighborhoods. Every little convenience store and bodega is going to want the right to sell liquor. Yes, they'll have to get liquor licenses, but they can cry discrimination because the Deli Mart was given the right. The city is defenseless and can no longer say that the policy has been continuous since 1975.
It cost big bucks for a liquor license, but makes sense economically to invest in one. Next will be the Central Mini-Mart at Central Ave & First Street, then
"In & Out" on Union & Atlantic Streets (they already want to do it), and how about a few more in the Anderson Business District and on Hudson Street.
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Liquor licenses are bought and sold privately and are regulated largely by state statute and not local ordinance. Hackensack does not issue any new licenses.
Deli-Mart purchased Princess Liquor's license and I doubt very much that the transfer of the license one block away will have any impact on the surrounding neighborhood.
This administration has done much for Hackensack and continues to do great work. For anyone who is truly paying attention, the administration's record speaks for itself.
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Although the city may not issue liquor licenses, do you think there might be a problem with a convenience store selling liquor? I think what "just watching" was saying was that previous administrations wouldn't have allowed it to happen without some form of protest.
The clientele at Princess Liquors was much different than the clientele that went to Deli Mart. Although the transfer of the license won't really change the surrounding neighborhood, it will change the makeup of who will now shop in Deli Mart. My children never crossed Main Street to go anywhere near Princess Liquors. They stayed on the side of Main Street where Deli Mart was. Now if they ride their bikes or are walking with friends, they have no choice but to walk past a liquor store. Not only that, do you think the kids walking home from Fairmount School should be exposed to the new Deli Mart?
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Simple Simon (Essex Street) and Simon Sez (State Street) are two convenience stores that sell liquor. Both border residential neighborhoods both are patronized by children. Both stores were opened long before this administration came to office. I understand your point, but a municipal government can't change the rules to make it ok for some convenience stores to sell liquor, but not others. Current liquor license owners can sell them to the highest bidder. That's state law- which would trump any effort by the local government to regulate otherwise. "Justwatching" is just wrong about the city's authority to control alcohol sales. For the most part, the city's role is clerical. The NJ Division of Alcoholic Berverage Control is the authority.
Should kids and drunks ever have to cross paths? No. Do I think it poses a real safety hazard? No.
I grew up in the Fairmount neighborhood and had a friend who lived on top of the Charlmaree Bar. His mom was a waitress and we would go there after school (Holy Trinity). We got to know some of the "regulars" at the Charmaree and Georges Liquor next door. It didn't take long to recognize the drunks, most of whom were harmless. All of them were characters. It's the "normal" looking ones you have to look out for.
I think the "exposure" you refer to is a by-product of life in the city. It's what makes the Hackensack breed a little heartier and more street-savy than more suburban folk.
I also think your kids will be fine because you have the sense to clue them in and make them aware.
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Al,
with all due respect, its not the same neighborhood we grew up in. the harmless drunks we grew up with are gone. They went home at closing time. These new arrivals have no home. There were NEVER drunks uptown falling down drunk on the side streets. They werent EDP's either, Now they are. I would never allow my children to run the neighborhood like we did.
Deli Mart had taken a dump since being sold. it is actually disgusting inside. I used to go there every day. no more...
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There's always Quick Check. Cleaner, brighter, no booze. Just one block south. Deli-Mart was probably losing business to Quick Check, which explains why it wanted to sell liquor.
The "emotionally disturbed people" are always an issue, but you have that in any city with this population, proximity to social services, etc. On the plus side, the new "full service" homeless shelter on River St. (supported by the current administration, under construction) will negate the need for the shelter on Orchard Street, which should help alleviate homeless wandering into the northern sections.
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I appreciate the responses, and I am satisfied that there is no new increase in liquor sales in the neighborhood. I didn't know that the license was transfered from Princess Liquors, but that being said, I would still have been happier if it were transferred completely out of any residential neighborhood.
I was under the impression that the city gives the final "thumbs up" or "thumbs down" to any initial decision by the state controlling agency (I'm told it's the NJ Division of Alcoholic Beverages). Editor, can you please confirm if this is true.
I also agree with the observation that the "Deli Mart" has become a dump, and that they are losing business to Quick Chek.
What I disagree with is the statement that it's OK for children to have some "exposure" to the problems that are part of living in a city, and that this is what city life is all about. Those who live in the Fairmount Section do not consider it "city". Rather it is considered to be a suburban community comparable to Maywood; the only difference being that it is located within the borders of Hackensack. Just like Maywood, most of the area is single-family homes, there are some small-scale commercial districts, and even some industry. But the identity is SUBURBAN, not URBAN. That's what people expect when buying a house there. They don't want to be told by the Editor or anyone else that they are living in a city, and have to cope with the exposure to urban problems right in their neighborhood.
I can state with confidence that the overwhelming majority of residents in the Fairmount Section of Hackensack do not want the spread of urban problems northwards into the area. That's why so many people were infuriated by the opening of the Orchard Street homeless Shelter.
Oh, and I don't consider the Charlmaree Bar and the rest of the run-down inner city Anderson business district to be in the Fairmount Section of Hackensack. Fairmount, I would say, means everything from the Holy Trinity Church northwards. I would count all of Hamilton Place as "Fairmount", as well. But definately nothing south of Passaic Street.
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Yes, alcohol sales are regulated by NJ ABC.
Who wants urban problems? All I'm saying is that just because you live in the northern section, don't think some invisible barrier exists that isolates you from the city at large. Hackensack is a city. Cities have urban problems. I think Fairmount residents understand that.
I never said the exposure was "OK". I said it was "by-product" of city life.
I won't speak for anyone else, but as a city resident, I know I will have some randomness and disharmony in my life. For the 2 people in Fairmount who don't know, Hackensack is not Mayberry. (Thank God).
(http://members.cox.net/donknotts/knotts02-mayberry.jpg)
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Today's (8/26) Record, page S-10 has a Public Notice (column furthest to the right, top notice) about an application to the City of Hackensack for transfer of a liquor license. Last paragraph starts out, "Objections, if any, should be made immediately, in writing, to: Debra A. Heck, Clerk, City of Hackensack, 65 Central Avenue, Hackensack, NJ 07601."
Evidently, objections can be made. Unfortunately, Deli Mart's application seemed to have caught us sleeping. It's too bad. I just wish someone noticed and had our backs.
Also, since Waterloo Sue's was losing business to other restaurants, should they have hired go-go dancers to get their business back or maybe had a better business plan? Deli Mart didn't need to resort to liquor sales to keep their business profitable, all they needed to do was reinvest a little money back into the place to keep it competitive.
Call a spade a spade, they bought the license to make more money. I can't blame them, just think the city could have better control over the situation. As proven by the above referenced Public Notice, someone in the city could have objected but didn't.
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I agree with the Editor. Maybe the problem in Hackensack is that some in the Fairmount section believe that they are not a part of Hackensack as a whole. Hackensack is a city and although we are not New York City, we will suffer some urban problems. Dividing us further will not help to correct those problems.
It is good to know that citizens can voice opposition to liquor applications. I am not sure how far they will get us but if you don't voice them, your chance for change is 0%. If you do voice them, your chance for change is at least 50/50.
I am not a supporter of the minute mayor situation. However, I am sure some things have come out of it. However, I believe the "eminent domain" situation unfair. Interestingly enough, it appears that the properties marked for takeover skip over the property owned by our County Chairman. Please correct me if I am wrong.
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In my last post, I asked the Editor to confirm: (((((that the city gives the final "thumbs up" or "thumbs down" to any initial decision by the state controlling agency (I'm told it's the NJ Division of Alcoholic Beverages). Editor, can you please confirm if this is true.))))
All he responded is that the NJ ABC regulates alcohol sales. Folks, this is called a non sequitor. He's answering one question with another question, as if the first question didn't exist. That way he avoids answering the real question.
Editor, please respond with a direct answer to the question, not a non sequitor. Thank you.
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Folks, this is called a non sequitor.
Minor detail...................actually, it's a "non-sequitur", from the Latin "It does not follow". (I KNEW those 3 years of Bergen Catholic Latin would finally come in handy some day!)
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Sorry this took so long, but I wanted to do some research. I found a recent, factually similar, New Jersey case.
The town makes the initial decision, but the "final thumbs up or down" depends on how much time and money the parties want to expend to challenge the decision, -all the way up the state supreme court. The courts will overturn a decision by a town/city if it abuses its discretion and decides the matter arbitrarily.
In the case I found, KALPESH M. PATEL, Appellant, v. GOVERNING BODY OF THE TOWNSHIP OF NORTH BRUNSWICK, OAL DKT. NO. ABC 2163-04, 2005, the judge reversed the town's denial of the license. The town denied the license because the store was too close to the schools. The judge held:
Local authorities may reasonably consider community sentiment when deciding whether or not to grant a place-to-place transfer requests. See Fanwood supra, 33 N.J. at 412-13. The community sentiment relied upon must be substantially widespread in the community and be reasonably associated with public health, safety, morals and general welfare concerns commonly recognized as incidental to the sale and consumption of alcoholic beverages. [emphasis added]
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The law requires deference to the municipality's decision "as long as the decision was not arbitrary or capricious and was reasonably related to the dangers to the public health, safety, morals and general welfare".
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I FIND that there is no basis in the record upon which to conclude that a convenience store engaging in the sale of alcoholic beverages located 1100 feet away from schools will create dangers associated with the sale of alcoholic beverages.
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I CONCLUDE that the finding of the Township Council that it would be detrimental and not in the best interests of the Township of North Brunswick to license such premises in the location proposed to be arbitrary and unreasonable, and that its denial of the place-to-place transfer constituted an abuse of discretion warranting reversal of its decision. [emphasis added]
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To date, this case has not been challeged.
I think that there should be a better way to notify people in the area that a license application is pending. I don't think anyone sees the small notice in the newspaper. The websites are one way, but they don't target a limited geographic area. Zoning Board applicants are required to notice people within 200 feet of the applicant's premises. Maybe that's the way to do it. The state regulates the notice requirement in the NJ Admin. Code.
In any event, when the public objects to the transfer, objections need to get on record so that the denial can survive legal challenge.
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The Township of North Brunswick denied the transfer request because they felt the liquor store was too close to the schools. The owner challenged the decision and the decision was overturned. At least the township made the effort to keep the liquor store away from the schools.
The original post said that previous administrations in Hackensack would have also fought the transfer. If the current administration running the City of Hackensack denied the transfer, it would have made a strong statement to the owners of Deli Mart that the city didn't think it was a good idea to add liquor sales to their convenience store.
Whether or not the city's decision would have held up in court is irrelevant. At least we could have said they tried to stop it and maybe rallied enough people to try to prevent it from happening. Instead, kids walking home from Fairmount School can stop into Deli Mart for a candy bar and hang out with all those wonderful people getting their daily fix.
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Responding to Anthony's last post on page 1 of this topic:
You'll agree that the administration has an obligation to operate within the bounds of the law. When the law is clear, any decision contrary to the law is arbitrary. I think it is inappropriate for a governing body to circumvent the law in order to "make a strong statement". Taking an unsupportable position also subjects the small business owners (and the public) to unnecessary legal expenses. It would have been wrong for them to do that.
I'm not thrilled with the location either, but I doubt there will be any noticeable impact on the neighborhood or the students who patronize the store. When you take into consideration all the battles that need to be fought in this city and the finite amount of time and money, you learn to choose your battles. You don't choose battles you're doomed to lose.
By the way, it looks like Deli-Mart is getting a facelift.
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I just wanted to thank the editor for his diligent research into the matter regarding the Patel vs. North Brunswick case law, and for admitting that his original position was incorrect. Not too many people in a public position like to admit that they are wrong, and it shows some character on his part. In fact, all of us who chimed in on the matter were incorrect to one degree or another. My initial statement was not fully correct either. But this type of online dialog is what community websites are all about. It's a step by step process the real truth finally comes out.
But at least we got to the bottom of it: The City of Hackensack gave the initial THUMBS UP to the transfer of the liquor license from one store in the neighborhood to another store in the same neighborhood. For whatever reason there was little or no input from the neighborhood, and nobody should simply expect people to read the fine print legal notices every week for years and years on the happens-chance that they might find something. The city could have proactively reached out to community leaders and the Fairmount PTA and consulted their opinions on this issue before making a decision, but I have seen no evidence that this happened.
They may have reasoned that there was no real change to the status quo because liquor was already being sold only one block further north. Personally, I would have rather seen the liquor license transferred completely out of the neighborhood.
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Why did it close?
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Landlord and other issues.
It looks like Dante's Pizza of Ridgefield Park is taking over the space.
Cardboard in the windows, Dumpster in the rear and some renovation taking place - I'm not seeing a Permit in the window.
I'm hoping the Landlord will do some exterior work but I doubt it.
By the way... How about the color of the old Waterloo Sue's???
It rivals Dom Pomadoro's
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You are joking, I hope.
We don't need another pitiful eyesore
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It appears that Dante's will open under the name of Frankie's Pizza at the
old House of Pizza site. Big sign in the window.
Also " The Deli Imporium " took down a hugh tree abd there is a dumpster out front - Reno work?? I guess they gave up on the Condo idea.
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The House of Pizza has closed ? I'm now living in Connecticut, but I always liked stopping in for a slice or 2 whenever I came back to visit. The big guy at the counter was always friendly, and they always seemed very busy ( 4-5 driveres delivering food at night). Does anyone know about the Dante's food that will be replacing them ? Also, I heard that the liquor store next to it also closed. it was also very busy during the 90's with alcohol/cigs/lottery. Is it the neighborhood that is forcing them out ( change in demographics) ?
Someone please enlighten me !!
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Yeah, I'll miss it too. Mike Dembo and the gang were great. Mike, if you read this- Thanks for the food and the memories.
It looks like there's some "gentrification" going on in the north section.
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Has there been any signs of life at the new "Frankie's Pizza (formerly House of Pizza) yet ? Also, what ever happened to The Riveria
Pizzeria on main Street ? Still in business, as well as the Go-Go next store ?
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Everything about what ramftbl is asking about is posted in "CONVENIENCE STORES CONVERTING INTO LIQUOR STORES", which is currently on page 2 of this website because nobody has posted a comment there in a while.
Mr. Editor, can these columns be merged, because they are talking about the same neighborhood ???
Yes, there has been significant resurgence in the quality of retail and businesses along Main Street in what is considered the Fairmount Section of Hackensack. Some would call that gentrification, but I would prefer to reserve use of that term only to describe the improvement of a neighborhood that contained abandoned properties, or was really down and out. The Fairmount Section was never downtrodden or inner city. (For instance, if the two approved luxury condo projects are ever built at State & Warren Streets, that would constitute gentrification. Other examples of gentrification would be the luxury condos under construction on Linden Street near Anderson, the new bank at Essex and East Railroad Ave, and the townhouses replacing the old Alan Party Rental).
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House of Pizza now Frankie's - "Rumor" is that with the Holidays, getting inspections
when the new owners are there is difficult. The new owners show up in a Dante's Pizza vehicle show up each day for a short period of time - get something done and leave.
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Today's Record: Starters: Poitin Still in Hackensack (http://www.northjersey.com/page.php?qstr=eXJpcnk3ZjcxN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXkxNSZmZ2JlbDdmN3ZxZWVFRXl5NzI0MDc2MA==)
FYI: I took Justwatching's suggestion and merged the topics into this one.
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I hope no one has the audacity to refer to the Poitin Still as the "Poison Still".
Ooops - too late! :laugh:
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We ate there last week. We had the prime rib, medium rare, with potato and vegetable. I thought it was especially good. I liked the fish too.
This is a great fit for the area. I'm glad they made the investment and I hope it pays off.
By the way, they valet park using Deli Mart's parking lot. Smart solution.
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Has Frankie's opened yet and has anyone eaten there yet ?
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Not open yet - they're close to opening though.
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House of Pizza is now Frankie L's Pizza. There is a new awning in place and a Coupon that came in the Supercoups mailer which came in the mail today. I called the Telephone number - The answering machine message said that the opening had to be postponed until February 1 2008.
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Old house of Pizza now Frankie L's. The new owner stopped in my office for a chat this morning and pay his bill. He said He was taking in Product and supplies today and will be open on Saturday 2/9/08.
He sent me a small Pepperoni from his Ridgefield Park store "Dante's" as a sample.
If his new ovens bake as well as the ovens in his other store, we will have another good Pizza option in our town. Depending on your taste of course.
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Old House of Pizza - Now Frankie L's opened this past Monday. I enjoyed a plate of Mussels last night. I believe the owners name is Dan - a pleasant younger man.
Now My Business block is only 25% vacant.
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Another vacancy property on northern Main St. - Copy Man Printers at 855 Main St.
A sign in the window states that The Hackensack Police are monitoring the building.
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I agree that the new restaurant Poitin Still greatly enhances the neighborhood and I hope they do well. However, I felt your biased anti-gay comment was entirely inappropriate. As a gay homeowner and property tax payer of one of the few small homes on fairmount avenue, what I love most about Hackensack is it's diversity and general open mindedness. I hope others who read this message board understand that your biases are a not a representation of our wonderful town. :'(
Even still, I wish you the best in your endeavors.
Hahahaha. This makes my day ---- this is utterly hilarious. Thanks for the research, Mr. Editor.
I guess the new establishment is "safe" to visit after all.
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Had 3 different kinds of pizza at the new Frankie L's 2 last week. Great pizza- highly recommended to
anyone looking to avoid a trip to Angelo's in Maywood.
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Hey Jensfog, give us a break please.
I have no problem with people living a gay lifestyle, or with being "out of the closet". But that doesn't mean I will patronize a gay bar if one were to open up in Hackensack.
Just be proud of what you are, have a little backbone, and stop crying wolf every time you read something slightly off. The problem about crying wolf is that when the wolf really arrives, nobody will listen to you.
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I think this is 800 Main, just north of Poitin Still on the east side of Main Street.
The building looks great, although it may be a little big for the lot. There's a sign out front offering a one bedroom apartment. I don't know how many units, but it looks like a residential/commercial mixed-use building. It has fancy hardware, cooper accentuation, beautiful brick facade, nice windows. I generally like it and think it works well in this area.
I'm glad to see that despite the economic downturn this project is being completed. I hope it gets occupancy and, based on the location, I think it will.
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Frankie L's Pizza has to be on life support! The pizza is pretty bad, which says something why the place is never busy. Can you say OREGANO?!?!
STOP THE PRESSES!!! FRANKIE L's HAD A MAKEOVER A FEW WEEKS AGO AND I'M HAPPY TO REPORT A 100% IMPROVEMENT IN THE PIZZA AND THE ENTIRE MENU!!! FAIRMOUNT CAN ONCE AGAIN BE PROUD OF OUR NEIGHBORHOOD PIZZA PLACE WITHOUT ANY DOUBT TO THE QUALITY OF THE PIZZA, SIZE OF THE SANDWICHES AND PRESENTATION OF THE FOOD. TOO BAD MY COVER WAS BLOWN, DOH!!!! 3/21/2009
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I think this is 800 Main, just north of Poitin Still on the east side of Main Street.
The building looks great, although it may be a little big for the lot.
I just saw this and want to say that I hope that the zoning board does not keep giving variances when someone wants to overbuild on a property. This building comes right to the sidewalk. It was built pratically on the neighbor's front porch. I'm guessing the lot next to it is next. Maintaining a good ratio of developed:undeveloped property is very important as the city moves forward. We don't want it to wind up looking like Jersey City or Queens just so developers can make a few extra bucks. Our schools and roads don't need new residents that badly.
[Editor's note: this topic was split to "Liquor Licenses (http://www.hackensacknow.org/index.php?topic=1085.msg3544#msg3544)"]
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Another new neighbor is opening up at 842 Main St... Where the old Princess Liquors and more recently the Tea Shop with a happy ending. I'm told that a Jeweler who has a store on Kinderkamack Rd in Oradell is moving in the space. Work has begun and they're making quick work of it. Rumor has it that " Charles Jewelers " formally on Anderson St is moving back into town. Things are looking up in the neighborhood